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TrojanFan2
03-28-2014, 09:09 AM
Well it looks like the camel has his nose under the tent. Some good and bad on both sides of the argument. Lots and lots of issues could come into play but at a minimum I expect the NCAA to start listening to players and coaches more.

I'm not a fan of paying college players but I do think that if a video game uses a players name and characteristics then that player should be paid by the video game developers

Thoughts?

Hemi Man
03-28-2014, 09:15 AM
The $30,000 plus the university is putting toward that students education per year isn't payment enough?

trojanbrutha
03-28-2014, 09:22 AM
Like Chuck stated yesterday, if they want to get paid, let them turn pro...If Northwestern dropped their football program, that'd be the line being drawn in the sand.

Possum
03-28-2014, 09:27 AM
The $30,000 plus the university is putting toward that students education per year isn't payment enough?

Ya, I agree...

TrojanFan2
03-28-2014, 09:48 PM
Pay is not the only issue. Some former players have strongly supported some rules changes like not sitting out a year if you transfer, draft eligibility, institutional control over non-sports related offenses, bowl eligibility,and some other NCAA rules.

I agree that the free ride in college is better than a part time job which most other students have or large student loans others have to repay.

redwaver
03-29-2014, 06:24 AM
Pay is not the only issue. Some former players have strongly supported some rules changes like not sitting out a year if you transfer, draft eligibility, institutional control over non-sports related offenses, bowl eligibility,and some other NCAA rules.

I agree that the free ride in college is better than a part time job which most other students have or large student loans others have to repay.

Don't disagree with any post here, however, assuming we accept many of these kids comes from homes with little or nothing to give to allow them to enjoy the normal college life others enjoy like a date or a trip out to eat Bar-B-Q, etc. or say go to a movie. Since there is no time for a job to earn this extra cash , how do they get it or is the assumption that they can do without. These kids are earning institutions millions! I oppose unions period! Were needed when they began but do more harm than good now. JMHO!

dgoebel
03-29-2014, 08:32 AM
The $30,000 plus the university is putting toward that students education per year isn't payment enough?

Exactly. These athletes forget what they get, and in Northwesterns case a education at one of the finest schools in the country for free.

So what they make money for the school. How do they think they get their school paid for?, Nike Uniforms, travel, meals etc?? As a former athlete with 3 in college that pre-paid tuition and scholarships only cover a portion of their cost, I don't feel sorry for any athlete that us getting full tuition, room and board and books paid for.

dgoebel
03-29-2014, 08:36 AM
Don't disagree with any post here, however, assuming we accept many of these kids comes from homes with little or nothing to give to allow them to enjoy the normal college life others enjoy like a date or a trip out to eat Bar-B-Q, etc. or say go to a movie. Since there is no time for a job to earn this extra cash , how do they get it or is the assumption that they can do without. These kids are earning institutions millions! I oppose unions period! Were needed when they began but do more harm than good now. JMHO!

I understand this point but they are getting everything paid for. What about the same kid from under privilege who is working 2 jobs to pay/work his way through school. I am sure they don't have extra for clubs, movies etc.

The sad part is the NCAA has to have the no work rule or we would be back to the SMU days at the big money schools. Sad.

redwaver
03-29-2014, 09:36 AM
I understand this point but they are getting everything paid for. What about the same kid from under privilege who is working 2 jobs to pay/work his way through school. I am sure they don't have extra for clubs, movies etc.

The sad part is the NCAA has to have the no work rule or we would be back to the SMU days at the big money schools. Sad.

Understand your feelings, I just know that when I was here on scholarship, my dad and mom both worked so they could send a few bucks that allowed me to have a social life here but a fellow teammate I roomed with didn't have that and it was tough for him even though the other things were paid for. He didn't have that good family back home yet he wanted to enjoy the things we were able to enjoy. I witnessed his pain so I guess I have compassion for those kids who is not as fortunate as I or others were. The paid education is fantastic but there's life after class and athletes can't hold down jobs these days so the ability to participate comes from where? Again, no issues needed, it's just one guys opinions.

Chasin170
04-03-2014, 06:37 AM
They should not be paid.Needs are being filled nicely with Pell Grants and additional clothing monies for the ones who need it.

My comments will be barbed toward the agents and lawyers who stand to profit the most from this....most student athletes are innocent in this push.

Coaches have a difficult enough job without having to deal with agent influence in a team

Pcbtrojan
04-03-2014, 06:56 AM
Unions area great idea for college athletics. Just look what they did for Detroit!

redwaver
04-03-2014, 10:59 AM
They should not be paid.Needs are being filled nicely with Pell Grants and additional clothing monies for the ones who need it.

My comments will be barbed toward the agents and lawyers who stand to profit the most from this....most student athletes are innocent in this push.

Coaches have a difficult enough job without having to deal with agent influence in a team

It's not about what's paid for via a free education, it's about life after class and that's not covered in athletic schlorships. If you've never had to sit and watch your fellow students/teammates enjoy a date or a movie or any social activity and you can't because there is no pocket money in scholarships then you won't understand. I believe LB said he supported a "stipen" but I might be wrong. JMHO

Chasin170
04-03-2014, 12:13 PM
It's not about what's paid for via a free education, it's about life after class and that's not covered in athletic schlorships. If you've never had to sit and watch your fellow students/teammates enjoy a date or a movie or any social activity and you can't because there is no pocket money in scholarships then you won't understand. I believe LB said he supported a "stipen" but I might be wrong. JMHO

Most kids weigh the decision and MOST ALL elect to ENJOY a great sport while reaping the increase in self esteem and importance a D1A program gives them.

Can a school counter sue the kid if he uses the university name to get a job or leverage relationships after his/her career for financial gain?

To paraphrase Lou Holtz " I see most all these players have Headphones and Cell phones"

The extenuated circumstances do get additional NCAA help.Off campus students can usually have money left over if they live within means.If stipends are allowed Troy will give them and be even more money for our athletes.

So early on players get used a little but in the end the players get to use the school for the rest of their life....about as fair as life gets imo.

Tums
04-04-2014, 05:00 PM
No to Union for me. How ever I am all for a $100 per week to be paid VIA traceable debit card for any player during The times from when practice is required (spring & fall) until the Bowl game is played. A player should also be placed in a true part time job earning up to $100 per week (10 hours @ $10) during the off season and it should be monitored. After all the NCAA is making large amount of money off of these players. With 100 players That would basically be paying the players less than some of the Lowest paid head coaches.

Spiritual_Trojan
04-05-2014, 05:42 AM
It's not about what's paid for via a free education, it's about life after class and that's not covered in athletic schlorships. If you've never had to sit and watch your fellow students/teammates enjoy a date or a movie or any social activity and you can't because there is no pocket money in scholarships then you won't understand. I believe LB said he supported a "stipen" but I might be wrong. JMHO

What about the band student who practices 6 days a week, whose Saturdays can start predawn and go to well after midnight depending on what I going on, on the Saturdays that they aren't doing game they are at marching festivals or doing some other be there or fail event. In addition to this most music students usually take 15 or more hours a semester, all for a scholarship that is wayyyyyy less than full tuition, unless your first chair in a symphonic band. So then they still have to work a part time job, some a full time job, to pay for the rest of their tuition, food, room and board, instrument needs, uniform fees and dry cleaning every week, etc...

My point is other students are just as busy If not more, don't get nearly as much from the school, on average take more classes, and no one is crying bout their hardships...

redwaver
04-05-2014, 06:42 AM
What about the band student who practices 6 days a week, whose Saturdays can start predawn and go to well after midnight depending on what I going on, on the Saturdays that they aren't doing game they are at marching festivals or doing some other be there or fail event. In addition to this most music students usually take 15 or more hours a semester, all for a scholarship that is wayyyyyy less than full tuition, unless your first chair in a symphonic band. So then they still have to work a part time job, some a full time job, to pay for the rest of their tuition, food, room and board, instrument needs, uniform fees and dry cleaning every week, etc...

My point is other students are just as busy If not more, don't get nearly as much from the school, on average take more classes, and no one is crying bout their hardships...

No one is "crying" here either but if you believe a band student, which my wife was one, or any other scholarshiped student is as busy or has the same regulations as athletes then there is no point of trying to explain it to you here. You obviously are not familiar with NCAA athletic requirements. Anyhooooo, I said JMHO! That means you don't have to have the same opinion. There are a lot of kids that have it tough but not a lot if kids are earning millions for their university. The SOTS is one great group and work hard! Oh, JMHO!

dgoebel
04-06-2014, 05:25 PM
No one is "crying" here either but if you believe a band student, which my wife was one, or any other scholarshiped student is as busy or has the same regulations as athletes then there is no point of trying to explain it to you here. You obviously are not familiar with NCAA athletic requirements. Anyhooooo, I said JMHO! That means you don't have to have the same opinion. There are a lot of kids that have it tough but not a lot if kids are earning millions for their university. The SOTS is one great group and work hard! Oh, JMHO!

Band camp in Aug. goes from 7 Am to 10 PM with the only break is to eat., and all this for $300 for being in the SOTS and they have to buy their helmet, gloves, shoes and rent the uniform which is more than $300. Both put in a lot of time and energy. The NCAA restrictions were put in place so big money boosters at big money schools didn't pay players $500 a week to watch a sprinkler turn on. The other problem is what about all the FCS players, D11 players and D111 players? They don't make millions for their schools, actually the vast majority of colleges lose money or break even on football. Is a D11 players time not as valuable as a D1 player? What about the D111 player who is on loans and basically playing for the love of the game? Yes, certain schools such as the Auburns, Bama, Florida etc make millions off of merchandising and tv, ticket revenue. But they also spend millions also. Coaches salaries, million dollar plus score boards, multi million dollar player facilities. 85 players on scholarship, not all 85 play. So do the ones who don't play get paid or is it only the ones who start? What about the $25,000 a year education they are getting?

I understand the money being tight for some players but I also know the term broke college student and it isn't just athletes.

trojanbrutha
04-06-2014, 06:27 PM
Could we please stop comparing football and band?

dgoebel
04-06-2014, 06:46 PM
Could we please stop comparing football and band?

It's more athlete to General student

trojanbrutha
04-06-2014, 07:35 PM
It's more athlete to General student

So, does a band member fall under the category of athlete or general student?

dgoebel
04-06-2014, 08:15 PM
So, does a band member fall under the category of athlete or general student?

The poster made a point about the band putting in just as many hours as athletes do, and at least during marching season this is true. Not to mention students like my daughter who are on academic scholarships. She has to maintain a 3.3 GPA in Biomedical Science to keep her Mellinium scholarship plus do her band requirements to keep her $1,700 a year band scholarship. Fall she has band practice every day, plus rehearsal and mandatory lesson instruction for her instrument. She ended up having 17 hours fall semester and 16 this semester. Every time I call her she is having to juggle band commitments, labs till 9 pm 3 nights a week and studying. So does the band and other students that have to keep a GPA to keep their scholarships deserve a union to? NO!!! I am saying this a a former college athlete and someone who loves sports, I don't want to hear how bad and how mistreated these athletes are.

redwaver
04-06-2014, 08:45 PM
The poster made a point about the band putting in just as many hours as athletes do, and at least during marching season this is true. Not to mention students like my daughter who are on academic scholarships. She has to maintain a 3.3 GPA in Biomedical Science to keep her Mellinium scholarship plus do her band requirements to keep her $1,700 a year band scholarship. Fall she has band practice every day, plus rehearsal and mandatory lesson instruction for her instrument. She ended up having 17 hours fall semester and 16 this semester. Every time I call her she is having to juggle band commitments, labs till 9 pm 3 nights a week and studying. So does the band and other students that have to keep a GPA to keep their scholarships deserve a union to? NO!!! I am saying this a a former college athlete and someone who loves sports, I don't want to hear how bad and how mistreated these athletes are.


Nobody was making this a question between band and Athletics. They are totally different entities. Ok, we can't give the band stipend so let's just forget the hold discussion. Heck, it was just individuals ideas anyway. Trust me, the NCAA will not ask any of us nor read these opinions prior to any decisions they make on the subject. That's all it was.....individual opinions. We know you have kids in the band. That's super! We know they work tireless, that's wonderful. The SOTS is GREAT and they obviously go the extra mile. My daughter also went to college, she also spent I creditable hours on activities she chose to participate in and she made great grades and NO, she didn't deserve a stipend. Her scholarship was fair and had she needed more money she had the choice to work. There are a lot of kids that go to universities because of the influence and reputation of the athletic programs. I would guess far less go to those universities because of the bands influences or reputation or any other extracurricular activity. That is ABSOLUTELY no reflection on our band or any other activity but rather a simple fact. Same could be said more or less about all the extra curricular activities a school has but the more kids that attend based on whatever brought them there the better financially for that institution. Again..... JMHO!

dgoebel
04-06-2014, 09:10 PM
Nobody was making this a question between band and Athletics. They are totally different entities. Ok, we can't give the band stipend so let's just forget the hold discussion. Heck, it was just individuals ideas anyway. Trust me, the NCAA will not ask any of us nor read these opinions prior to any decisions they make on the subject. That's all it was.....individual opinions. We know you have kids in the band. That's super! We know they work tireless, that's wonderful. The SOTS is GREAT and they obviously go the extra mile. My daughter also went to college, she also spent I creditable hours on activities she chose to participate in and she made great grades and NO, she didn't deserve a stipend. Her scholarship was fair and had she needed more money she had the choice to work. There are a lot of kids that go to universities because of the influence and reputation of the athletic programs. I would guess far less go to those universities because of the bands influences or reputation or any other extracurricular activity. That is ABSOLUTELY no reflection on our band or any other activity but rather a simple fact. Same could be said more or less about all the extra curricular activities a school has but the more kids that attend based on whatever brought them there the better financially for that institution. Again..... JMHO!

Redwaver I understand your points. I guess I am looking at this scenario from two areas 1) as a parent of two current non-athlete college students. 2) as a former D 11 athlete. Stipends would be nice but how is every school going to do them? And will every sport get them? And will every athlete ( scholarship and walk on get them). How does a school such as Troy fund this when our football budget is what Nick Saban makes? Does the school tack on an additional student fee to cover this? So you make the general students pay to give their money to athletes to spend? That reeks of wealth distribution our President harps on! Not to mention a rebellion by students. Do they raise tuition? Ticket prices? Say we have roughly 300 student scholarship athletes at Troy for all sports. If we give $50 a week stipend for 40 weeks that is $600,000. We hear how we don't have resources to hire a full time recruiting coordinator for football, how will we do this? Jmo. Would it have been nice to get extra spending money when we played? Yes. But there are more d11 and d-111 schools I think than FBS so will it apply to these players also because there is no way these programs can pay it. Like you, just my honest opinion and you know that I have nothing but the utmost respect for you.

Buzz Lightyear
04-07-2014, 07:56 AM
Tremendous number of buzz words comes to mind......but.......does opportunity equal fairness.....and in whos mind are we speaking......Income inequality is all the talk now and that is essentially what we are trying to reverse in the general sense by working backword from the big money making schools with their distribution of da bigs to da smalls on campus......Truth is there are no right or wrong actions but plenty of consequences.....Lawyers have entered the picture and this while I would like to say pollutes the whole matter it to is just a consequence of da bigs supporting the littles........In my line of work I am compensated pretty well.....the system was set many many moons ago and went in to my career.......Now if someone were to say starting tomorrow that what you share now is not enough we want all or a great deal more of it....income redistribution I would balk. Just has health care is undergoing a HUGE change, this unionizing student athletes will cause a huge change in sports (be it not nearly as big as health care) but how it all comes out is hard to say and the only certain is that it will not be as it is now.

Student athletes have gone by no other course their fields of play and have for years received a variety of amounts of scholarships......stipends are almost a certainty and if a school wishes to play in that arena of competition then they will have to decide how to fund it...........JUST like our government a new entitlement will be funded to cover it......(Oh I am sorry in our national governments plan we print more money and debate a whole lot about taking more from tax payers.)......none the less if WE as Troy or any other school wishes to play in the future will have a tierd system..........

There has been a great debate in here about band or for that matter it will go on around the country and you can plug in ______ vs. _______ for a thousand different situations.......competition for scholarships vary from sport to sport and often even time comittments etc.......

We will have a tierd system fall out in all likelyhood and you will find schools able to compete in level 1-3 or 5 or something like that with stipends to the level 1's sports......and thus title nine will be revised to a degree not because of fairness or opportunity......(equal outcome is not inclusive or exclusive of either of them).....It will be revised by economics with a set of guidelines and regulations....It has to be this way......You can not let FREE MARKET forces force us to change without letting them FORCE change to EQUALITY...TITLE IX.....Fairness should mean opportunity that gives a level playing field to those who are EQUAL......I can not play the piano were a flip....THAT does not give me the right to play at Carnegie Hall because its fair.....nor should it.....and if I did play and only my mom and dad showed up should I be paid as much as the greatest piano player in the world or even the top 5,000 of them.....NO......Free market systems have to have rules but equal outcome is NOT ONE OF THEM.

TrojanFan2
04-07-2014, 10:22 AM
Money in college sports is here and it is not going away. But it's not the exclusive thing driving this talk of a union. One big question is how much are we going to allow players to participate in the process that the NCAA uses to arrive at decisions. Right now they don't participate at all.

If I give a ride to a player in the rain (like the storm we are currently having) it is a violation of NCAA rules even though I'm not aware of his status as a scholarship athlete and he doesn't know mine as a donor.
IF player X lies about receiving money, or gambles on the game, or a myriad of other NCAA violations the whole team (college) suffers. If coach X violates rules the whole team (college) suffers while the coach merely moves to another school. If anyone associated with the athletics department of a school does anything wrong the team may very will be punished while a professor or student in any other department would be handled individually. The meaning of institutional control has gone way too far. I think we could find a way to punish the individual rather than the whole school.

The NFL draft rules are different from the NBA or MLB draft rules.

Video games use a player's likeness and statistics to sell games but the players don't get a penny.

I don't think players should ever be payed by the school. That just means the bigger schools will have a huge advantage or the NCAA will come up with some rule to equalize things. But let the athlete get paid for things that don't effect the game like a part-time job, signing autographs, or video games just to name a few.

trojanbrutha
04-07-2014, 12:39 PM
The NCAA 2K games have been discontinued be EA Sports and the Ed O'Bannon ruling. But, I read that the Northwestern HC asked his players not to pursue this course of action. With the issue of an additional stipend, you have people skirting the rules of amateurism. What about Title IX? I'm just not so sure that this unionization would work for public institutions as opposed to private schools like Northwestern.

dgoebel
04-07-2014, 12:48 PM
The NCAA 2K games have been discontinued be EA Sports and the Ed O'Bannon ruling. But, I read that the Northwestern HC asked his players not to pursue this course of action. With the issue of an additional stipend, you have people skirting the rules of amateurism. What about Title IX? I'm just not so sure that this unionization would work for public institutions as opposed to private schools like Northwestern.

That brings up a very interesting point as arguably the wealthiest program in the country is private...Notre Dame.

Buzz Lightyear
04-07-2014, 03:24 PM
The NCAA 2K games have been discontinued be EA Sports and the Ed O'Bannon ruling. But, I read that the Northwestern HC asked his players not to pursue this course of action. With the issue of an additional stipend, you have people skirting the rules of amateurism. What about Title IX? I'm just not so sure that this unionization would work for public institutions as opposed to private schools like Northwestern.

Title IX would apply in any school that accepts any federal monies.....scholarships in form of grants etc even at private universities.....the goal of unionizing the athletes isn't the problem. The problem is trying to extract a stipend or other wise for services rendered to a school who earns money from those services which would be entitled some form of compensation.......If the NEGOTIATED stipend (extorted I would say) is based on (and is being debated) why sports that make money fund the others....guess what TITLE NINE infraction......I for one believe that if FREE MARKET can put pressure by law (UNIONIZING and the litigation to follow) to change the land scape TITLE NINE WILL BE CHANGED or eliminated.....Da haves pushing the have nots as far as school......It would be nice to negotiate a settlement on this with continued funding for other sports as they are......but you will never be able to reconcile Title Nine to what they are trying to do....

Why not you ask.....Dang good question.....School A lets say Alablaba offers little quick dude scholar...and pulls it.....equal opportunity in all contracts and fairness since might not receive stipend at say little ole Troy.....Law suit number one......(all that nasty stuff about verbal contracts and stuff....)

Yep the world is not better for college sports in the upcoming years over this battle....lots and lots of battles over this in the upcoming years......Oh and by the way.....Attorneys get stipends for this stuff.

trojanbrutha
04-07-2014, 05:17 PM
Title IX would apply in any school that accepts any federal monies.....scholarships in form of grants etc even at private universities.....the goal of unionizing the athletes isn't the problem. The problem is trying to extract a stipend or other wise for services rendered to a school who earns money from those services which would be entitled some form of compensation.......If the NEGOTIATED stipend (extorted I would say) is based on (and is being debated) why sports that make money fund the others....guess what TITLE NINE infraction......I for one believe that if FREE MARKET can put pressure by law (UNIONIZING and the litigation to follow) to change the land scape TITLE NINE WILL BE CHANGED or eliminated.....Da haves pushing the have nots as far as school......It would be nice to negotiate a settlement on this with continued funding for other sports as they are......but you will never be able to reconcile Title Nine to what they are trying to do....

Why not you ask.....Dang good question.....School A lets say Alablaba offers little quick dude scholar...and pulls it.....equal opportunity in all contracts and fairness since might not receive stipend at say little ole Troy.....Law suit number one......(all that nasty stuff about verbal contracts and stuff....)

Yep the world is not better for college sports in the upcoming years over this battle....lots and lots of battles over this in the upcoming years......Oh and by the way.....Attorneys get stipends for this stuff.

Let's follow that train of thought and take a really good look at the legislature of AL: 1) this is an at-will state and they have refused to allow the auto workers of this state to unionize. 2) UA football coach has been quoted on the record as supporting a stipend. I suspect that there will be more backroom deals for 2 as opposed to 1.

dgoebel
04-08-2014, 03:01 PM
I am very anti-union so my view is pretty set on this. Unions served a purpose with the DEADLY working conditions in steel mills and coal mines. They did their purpose, now they are about one thing..GREED and they are solely responsible for the outsourcing of American manufacturing.

Now my understanding of union laws is limited, but I believe they have to be voted in by an organization. So would it have to be each separate sport at a school or combined sports? If combined you might have football and basketball vote for it but the others not vote for it. What happens if Alabama votes it in but Auburn doesn't? What happens if say UNA votes it in and the school can't afford it. Will they legally be allowed to drop sports? This is opening Pandora's box to scenarios with drastic consequences..IMO

Buzz Lightyear
04-09-2014, 02:41 PM
I am very anti-union so my view is pretty set on this. Unions served a purpose with the DEADLY working conditions in steel mills and coal mines. They did their purpose, now they are about one thing..GREED and they are solely responsible for the outsourcing of American manufacturing.

Now my understanding of union laws is limited, but I believe they have to be voted in by an organization. So would it have to be each separate sport at a school or combined sports? If combined you might have football and basketball vote for it but the others not vote for it. What happens if Alabama votes it in but Auburn doesn't? What happens if say UNA votes it in and the school can't afford it. Will they legally be allowed to drop sports? This is opening Pandora's box to scenarios with drastic consequences..IMO

exactly....you will be hard pressed to have Title nine reconcile with any changes the Unions want....